Doctor Who [Classic] » Doctor Who – Who’s Talking: Tom Baker

Rich

Well I guess my first question has to be what is your reaction to the huge popularity of Doctor Who?

Tom

Amazement. And that’s why I’m here really. Yes, it’s just amazement. I can hardly believe it and so I’m here to check on my amazement.

Rich

Why do you think Doctor Who has generated such a loyal, almost religious, following among its fans?

Tom

I tried to ask someone that this morning. I don’t know the answer to that either. I just cannot understand why the Americans particularly who are used to I think probably glossier more science fictional type programmes should take so much to Doctor Who. Which of course as you know very well is largely a science fantasy. I don’t know.

Rich

Do you want to hazard a guess?

Tom

No. That would be far too risky. Ask me another question.

Rich

OK. Originally Doctor Who was conceived in Britain as a children’s series. Over in America at least its attracted a quite large following among adults. Can you give me any reasons for this cross-over in audience?

Tom

One of these questions I’m going to be able to give you an answer to. No, that also amazes me. Because it is true that the, in London where I live and where I move around the reaction is mainly from really quite small children. The mail I get from the United States of America which someone takes care of for me is largely from young adults who appear to see some sort of quality in the programme and there is certainly technical quality of course. But they seem to see some sort of quality in the character that I play that escapes me.

Rich

Do you think its any sort of message to the series and maybe that might be the quality that’s the large part of the popularity?

Tom

Oh I don’t know, I mean, I think it’s a kind of. The character is very gentle and some might even say whimsical. I don’t know why but maybe its just contrast. You know, it’s just a novelty.

Rich

Some people feel that science fiction fantasy right now is popular because it’s an escapist form of entertainment. Given the world situation right now do you think people crave escapism?

Tom

Well yes. I think that’s true. I mean people escape into religion or mysticism or whatever it is. Yes. Everyone needs escape routes. And the notion that out there in space there is something that might justify the futility of most peoples existence on this space is very beguiling isn’t it? I myself am prone to fantasy.

Rich

In what way?

Tom

Well in the sense it may comfort me. I mean you know I daydream and, you know, get caught up in quite slight things such as say Close Encounters of the Third Kind, was it called? I remember being quite beguiled by that. For the duration of the film. I thought that was really rather clever.

Rich

Are you a fan of science fiction?

Tom

Oh no, no. Not much. Not much, no I don’t. Science fantasy I read, mostly people like Stanislas Lem, or Vonegut. But not of science fiction. No. I find futuristic stuff baffles me a bit really. Because once you get bit futuristic in science fiction the problem is actually to just to identify and describe the artefacts of ordinary existence. And as I don’t think conceptually its not really the sort of stuff that I’m keen about.

Rich

How did you come to be cast as the Doctor?

Tom

Well I just happened to write an aggressive letter to someone. I was shovelling cement and carrying bricks on a building site and I was out of work and I wrote to someone who the day he actually got my letter had been to a casting session. And then it changed my life. Like watching channel 54 KTEH changed my life.

Rich

At that time were you the proverbial struggling actor?

Tom

No I wasn’t the proverbial struggling actor. I had done some films and I’d been at the National Theatre. No I was just literally in a trough. And of course one gets very agitated because one wants to pursue ones career. I quite enjoyed shovelling plaster and things like that. And making tea and trying to amuse my fellow workers, but I wanted to be back acting. Accident.

Rich

Were you a viewer of Doctor Who?

Tom

Well, only in a very casual way because it used to go out. It goes out in England at the pub time you see. So I mean, I was mostly in the pub when Doctor Who was on. But occasionally I wasn’t, such as when I was extremely ill or broke or something like that. And so occasionally I used to watch it. It went through my mind once or twice it wouldn’t be a bad job to do.

Rich

What was your impression, original impression, of the series itself?

Tom

When I watched it? Do you mean before I was in it?

Rich

Yes as a viewer.

Tom

Yeah, I just thought it was quite fun. I thought that would be a good part to play. I naturally didn’t watch it when I was in it. It was much too.

Rich

Why not

Tom

Oh it was much too frightening I thought.

Rich

Really?

Tom

Yeah. I think also that I didn’t really understand it, you see. People were very kind to me in England. They said they quite liked my performance. Which is a very subjective reaction. They said there was a kind of spontaneity about my performance. And I dare say there might have been spontaneity about my performance. But the explanation is that if there was a spontaneity it was because I never quite understood the scripts. You see we used to work 4 or 6 at a time and so I never quite knew where I was. And so if I look surprised when I come through a door and say is that really you Sarah Jane I mean I genuinely am surprised. So if there was any spontaneity it was an accident.

Rich

Do you have a favourite Doctor Who adventure?

Tom

I vaguely remember one called the Ark in Space which I thought was very, very well done technically. I mean I can’t comment sensibly on myself. But I thought that was a very slick achievement. Because you know it was all, it’s always done for fourpence. You see, that was the fun of it all. I mean when you come through. You know when I used to come through a door in Doctor Who very slowly and peer round it wasn’t because I wanted to come through a door like that. If I’d come through quickly the door would have come off in my hand. So one had to stealthily creep about because the sets were very, very delicate. That’s all.

Rich

Who came up with your costume design?

Tom

That was an accident. Another one. I had about 6 weeks before we had to produce designs. And I got on terribly well with the first designer who was called Jim Acheson. Very young and gifted. And we used to go out to play every day. What we used to do was go out to some big costumier like Morris Angel in London or Nathan’s or somewhere like that where he was very well known. And instead of him going straight into trying to design things he got. He had 6 weeks to get to know me. And we used to go out to play every day. We used to meet in the morning about 10 for a cup of tea. Then go and play with all these costumes. Which is a very agreeable way to pass a couple of hours before the pubs open. And so gradually we got to know each other. And then a pattern began to emerge of that sort of boho you know end of the last century idea. Kind of chaos. And then the hat came. And then he saw a man in the pub, pubs you see do have their value. He saw a man wearing that colour scarf that I had. And he thought they were lovely colours. I think they are, or were. And so he said I’d like you in a scarf. And I said I thought it was a very good idea. And he bought he ordered, being the BBC, I mean he’s not a knitter, he’s a designer, he bought too much wool and he gave it to a woman called Begonia Pope, I’ve never forgotten what a pretty name. And Begonia Pope I suppose was so excited to be working for the British Broadcasting Corporation, and she was a good knitter. And she just knitted it all up. And when we got there, there was this immense scarf. And that’s how it happened.

Rich

I noticed in a few episodes of Doctor Who your scarf came perilously close to getting entangled in your legs. Did you ever trip over your scarf?

Tom

Well, you know, I’m very nervous when I work. And frequently things used to go wrong of course, which is understandable. But frequently I used to trip over that scarf. And I never met a director, I’m sorry to say, who ever left one of those sequences in. I mean, I said, you know, I’m bound to fall over it sometimes. But they said no. It looked like I was just, you know, trying to get cheap laughs or something.

Rich

How much of your own personality did you bring to the character of Doctor Who?

Tom

I would say almost none. Because, you know, people ascribe to me the qualities of that character. Well I mean that’s not so. I mean it’s a performance. I mean, Doctor Who is, is reliable, is moral. I mean in the sense that he’s chaste and he’s unavaricious. He’s unviolent. He takes the moral point of view predictably takes the moral point of view. He is utterly the hero.

Rich

And you’re none of those things?

Tom

No. No. No. No I’m utterly unreliable. I don’t think I’ve done a. I was just thinking really. I was just trying to think if I’d ever done a decent action in my whole life. No I’m not at all like Doctor Who.

Rich

He tends to be absentminded, whimsical, impatient,

Tom

Yeah, but I mean some of that comes out of the script really. And also this sort of inventiveness of the directors who are trying to drive through sometimes a heavy plot line or whatever. So one finds all sorts of ways to try and do the alchemy of making the ordinary extraordinary. I mean if the lines are said flat they’ve got no meaning at all. Whereas, you know, because the writers work under great pressure so one tries to get inventive. The whole charm of doing it for so long wasn’t because it was a great challenge as an actor but because in an acting in a way of acting it’s not really an acting part. There’s no development. The predictability is absolute. There is no change in the character. You now what he’s going to do. The fun of doing it was how, when people knew what your attitudes were going to be, or what your reactions were going to be, how were you going to therefore find the variety to make it fun and interesting.

Rich

Is that the fun of the character?

Tom

I think so yes. It’s a bit like getting through life isn’t it. It really is. I mean the parallel I don’t believe in fundamental differences between groups of people. I’m an anti-boredom man. I’m in it, I’m down here for ecstasy. And as an actor on a programme like that I would go as far as I could or dare. Although I was notorious for my bad taste. I would go as far as I dared to make the ordinary less ordinary. I mean I really feel that’s important. Otherwise life is intolerable, isn’t it? If life isn’t ecstatic or going towards ecstasy at least in intention. I don’t mean that one can be in a permanent state of ecstasy. I mean you’d obviously be exhausted.

Rich

You once stated the role of Doctor Who was actor proof. What exactly do you mean by that?

Tom

By that I meant that the formula is so strong, that given that the man who fronts it, and so far its only a man, and the BBC’s pretty traditional place, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be a woman. But given that the person fronting it is professionally competent, it’s the formula itself that carries the thrust of the programme. I mean no ones ever failed on it. No one. I mean, not even my successor.

Rich

You’re being a little modest there aren’t you? It is possible to fail in that role.

Tom

Oh I don’t think so. Well there’s no evidence of anyone failing.

Rich

Isn’t that a statement for the quality of the actors?

Tom

Well I don’t know. I, no I, I hold on to the idea that it that it’s the notion the whole conception of the programme that gives it its strength.

Rich

Getting away from the series Doctor Who for a moment. In some of your earlier roles, particularly Nicolas and Alexandra, and Sinbad’s Golden Voyage, you played villains, or less than heroic characters. Given the choice do you prefer to play a villain or a hero?

Tom

Boy, that really is a journalist’s question isn’t it. That’s like asking which of your ex-wives was your favourite. You see the thing is actors don’t, I don’t think that. I can’t speak for all actors but the few that I know because I dodge them like the plague. Mostly I hate actors, especially if they’re younger than I am, or better looking or get more work or whatever. But when you approach a part you can only play a part from the point of view of that character. So if an actor says I’ve got a great part and I’m playing a villain, if an actor said that to me, I wouldn’t want to pursue the conversation because I would consider him a bonehead straight away. You must always play the character from the character’s point of view. The only person or people who can decide who’s a villain and who isn’t are the viewers, or the audience in the theatre or whatever. If you play these characters so called villains, its other people who call you the villain. The villain is misunderstood in his terms. Isn’t he, certainly in melodrama. And he says I don’t know I just want to rule the world. I just want to rob banks and have a good time. And people keep getting in my way. Have I got to kill everybody? And if necessary he kills them. And then they call him a villain. But from his point of view, you know, I mean I suppose Hitler and Stalin and a few of those heavy numbers probably felt bitterly misunderstood. And it always depends on the point of view. I mean if you could interview Hitler’s dog, say, you might find that, if the dog could talk, it would say on channel 54 KTEH it would say well, I mean I can’t do a dog really, it would say well you’ve got to speak as you find haven’t you. I mean I found him terribly nice. He used to tickle my tummy every night and give me a dog biscuit. No I’ve got no complaints. I thought Adolf was lovely. You’ve got to take the point of view of whatever you’re playing and not pander to the received notions of other actors or other directors or other audiences. And that way you might be surprising if you’re lucky.

Rich

When you were a young man you originally entered a seminary, or rather a monastery, what were your reasons for doing that?

Tom

Oh desperation really. It was just that I didn’t know what to do with my life. And that was the only thing that was casting up at the time. I think I would have just as easily joined the foreign legion or anything to relieve the boredom of the life that was unfolding before me. Since I have never been touched by education. The life that was unfolding before me all those years ago in a provincial city like Liverpool was very grim indeed. And somebody came along one day another accident but this time it was a long accident, came along looking for heroes. He said I’m looking for young men who want to do something splendid. Well I mean there’s a close encounter. And so I put my hand up. I’d have done anything to do something splendid. Because the only way out of the pattern that was unfolding before me was through education. And in that sense I was inadequate.

Rich

Why did you end up leaving the monastery?

Tom

Well I was in the wrong place really. And I fell apart. And I met a wise man and had a conversation with him for a few hours. And he said listen if you don’t get out of here soon you’re just going to be carried out screaming. Because he assessed my motives and discovered you know they were too vague. I wasn’t cut out for all that silence and all that self-sacrifice. I’m not that sort of generous person. I want to be out hustling somehow. And I had to get started and they got me out very kindly.

Rich

How long did it take you to realise this?

Tom

Oh nearly 6 years. I told you I was pretty inadequate educationally. I thought very slowly in those days. I can think a bit quicker now.

Rich

That’s quite a radical change from the monastic life to that as an actor. How did this decision come about?

Tom

It wasn’t quite so simple as that. The next accident was I had to go in the army. And it was in the army that I was convinced because I didn’t see any action in the army except in the Naafi queue or somewhere like that. I mean I wasn’t a proper soldier. But I was in the army and it was towards the end of National Service in the United Kingdom. And one got up to all sorts of tricks just to pass the time. And one of them was really very well organised entertainment. And when I came out I got a scholarship from the Liverpool authorities and got in the London drama schools. And that’s how I got started. I didn’t actually finish the course. They took me aside and said I couldn’t earn my living. And they were nearly right. Not quite right though. And interestingly from my point of view, of the 42 who entered in my year, I think only 2 of us are still working, that I know of.

Rich

I once read that you were quote unquote discovered by Laurence Olivier. What was the situation of your first meeting?

Tom

I don’t think that I was discovered by Laurence Olivier. I think Laurence Olivier was very kind to me. And I’m very grateful to him because he’s a powerful patron to have had. He was very kind and very encouraging to me when I was at the National Theatre. And also I understand was instrumental in me getting the part of Rasputin in Nicholas and Alexandra. And therefore introducing me to Sam Spiegel and Columbia Pictures and, you know, the whole machinery of illusion.

Rich

Do you have any preference stage, screen, television?

Tom

No, like everyone else I’m easily pleased by the very best. I just want the best work that’s going at the time.

Rich

Is there any particular role that you’ve longed to play?

Tom

No, I don’t think so. No. I like playing the best parts. I had a bit of an uproar actually last year. I was in a disastrous production of Heda Gabler. The last year or so I’ve been playing title roles. Which is nice. For me. And so I signed to be in Heda Gabler by Ibsen. And when I got there I discovered I wasn’t playing Heda Gabler I was playing Judge Brack. Susannah York was playing Heda Gabler. And she really didn’t like the idea that I fancied the part she had. Which of course is the better part. In fact we really didn’t get on at all well. It was a wonderful 12 weeks.

Rich

You said before that you avoid actors like the plague.

Tom

Yes I do.

Rich

Why?

Tom

Well, because they won’t stop talking. They’re too like me. I mean if I go out with actors I can hardly get a word in edgeways.

Rich

Would you ever go back to playing a continuous role in a television series?

Tom

To playing what sort of role?

Rich

A continuous role such as in Doctor Who.

Tom

Oh, I’d never get back to television to play a, no.

Rich

Why’s that?

Tom

Because I mean there’s nothing on television that runs that long that would interest me at all. I mean most of it’s such junk isn’t it? Well, I mean of course you have to do junk. Everyone has to do junk. I mean most jobs are junk. As nearly everyone in the street will tell you. So one settles for the junk and tries to do the alchemy and turn the junk into gold. You know, like one tries to turn the dreariness and friction of everyday life into some bearable possibility. I mean of course I would do it for money for a while. But no. Doctor Who was terrific, and funny to do. No I’ll mix it from now onwards.

Rich

Were there any problems in being involved with a long running series? Getting stereotyped in one role, doing the same character over and over again?

Tom

I think that there could be problems if one were playing a naturalistic part over a long time. But I mean, playing a fantastical part, audiences seem to suspend their disbelief when you move much more easily. I mean, since I’ve finished with the series, which isn’t long, I’ve played Oscar Wilde, which is a good contrast. Then I played Long John Silver in Treasure Island. Both in the theatre in London. Then I played Brack in Heda Gabler. And something. Oh yes, I toured with the Royal Shakespeare Company in a contemporary play called Educating Rita. And there seemed to be no problem at all. No.

Rich

What was it like, the change in your life, waking up that first day and realising that you weren’t doing Doctor Who any more?

Tom

I had prepared myself for it. What I really missed was the sort of grinding daily routine of the script meetings and the editing, which fascinated me. It wasn’t just playing the part. I mean, I knew all the directors and I knew all about the set-ups and I knew about the repetitions. I was the constant reference point, week after week, so I became very friendly and close to the directors I worked with. And the designers I worked with. And the technicians. So I was cut adrift then. I felt a bit down then. So I lay low for a while and stayed out of sight. But then, oh then I got Oscar Wilde so that cheered me up no end. Because he was a marvellous poseur. And right up my street really.

Rich

What was the play?

Tom

It was called the Trials of Oscar Wilde. And I had all the best lines.

Rich

What are your goals for the future?

Tom

I don’t know. I think that I’m being considered for Christopher Columbus which is being made in association with CBS and an Italian company I believe called REI. And I’m being considered for that. Whether I’ll want to do that when I read their script I don’t know. But I’ll give them a chance and read their script.

Rich

Is there any particular actor or actress that you’d like to work with some time in the future?

Tom

I once worked with Maggie Smith, which was very exhilarating. Yes. I admired her very much indeed. Yes, Maggie Smith.

Rich

Since leaving Doctor Who do you still follow your diet of jelly babies?

Tom

No I don’t. No, no I don’t. That was just a joke I used to put in actually. And

Rich

How did it come about?

Tom

It came about when there was a scene where I was supposed to pull a knife out and threaten someone with a knife. On some planet or other. And the producer wasn’t there and the script editor wasn’t there and I refused to use this knife you see. And the director got very upset because he was younger than I was and I could shout louder than he was. And anyway I told him I wouldn’t do it. And so he said well what will you do. And so I said well we’re on another planet south of Gallifrey or somewhere and these people I’m talking to are aliens. They don’t know what a knife or a jelly baby or a hand grenade or an FLN rifle is. So I snatched this chap and quickly held the jelly baby to his head. And said take me to your leader, or I’ll kill you with this deadly jelly baby. And the fellow said go on kill me then. So I promptly ate the jelly baby and said no one gives me orders. Please take me to your leader.